It's Where I Am with Zandra Polard

Kevin Krall 0:00
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Zandra Polard 0:14
Good morning, Las Vegas, it's Zondra Polare. With, it's where I am. Today, we're talking about student loan forgiveness, the continuation of the wealth gap. So we have $10,000 knocked off. Are you happy? Are you excited about that? Or are you pissed off, because it's not enough, for me, is just the tip of the iceberg. There's so much more, so much more, to pay so much more that is owed. There's a lot of people who are upset about it, there are some people who are grateful for it. And it just all kind of depends on, you know, your personal situation, right? So you go through school, it's time to pay back these debts. Now, how long did you go to school for? Right? So there's gonna be a difference for from someone who went to school for a couple of years. And someone who went to school for like, eight or 10. Right? So today, I have my guest, Dr. Christopher wit, who was the Vice Chancellor of Denver University. He is a head of the diversity, equity inclusion. Right? department there. So thank you, welcome. You actually brought this topic to mind, from Facebook, I saw. And I was a little confused at first, but I think I have some clarity now. But can you please help our listeners understand, the 10 Grand really is not doing that much?

Unknown Speaker 1:57
Well, I want to be clear that, you know, knocking 10 to $20,000 off of anyone's individual debt is definitely going to do more than if not happening. You know, the real concern comes when we talk about kind of, on a broad level, when we talk about the black community, other communities of color across the United States that really live in the reality of a racial wealth gap, when compared to their white counterparts. And that racial wealth gap has persisted for generations. And when we look at the last couple of decades, it's really fluctuated depending on the status of our economy. And, you know, the various market fluctuations that we've seen, the team between 10 times as much wealth in the hands of white families versus their black counterparts all the way up to over 20 times. And when I say that, I'm not talking about 10%, or 20%, I'm talking about 10 to 20 times more wealth in the hands of white households versus similar households, in black communities. And then when we look at the comparisons between black and Latino communities, and others, there are fluctuations, but there's still major gaps there. So with that being a reality, just because of the history that we've had of wealth building tools being designed to help build a white middle class to help build wealth in the hands of white families. In many cases throughout the 20th century, there were various points where black folks were excluded from those wealth building tools. And we still live with those legacies, because wealth is something that is generational. So if we talking about that, that very real wealth gap that has been passed from generation to generation, we ended up having situations where individuals do want to really avail themselves of higher education, if they want to avail themselves of graduate or professional degrees, there's a higher likelihood that a person from a black family would end up borrowing more money than their white counterpart because of those variations in wealth that could occur with their families. So now that we're in the moment of debt relief, we're seeing that black folks have exponentially more student debt than their white counterparts. And it's very interesting that on average, you're talking about that white student debt remaining with folks. at this current moment, many statistics showed again, around 10 to $15,000. With when you're talking about black folks, you're talking about many times more than that, depending on who it is. It could be five times more so if you're relieving or forgiving 10 to 20,000 You're gonna have a lot of white folks who are going to be able to erase their debt. If not get it down. into such a very manageable space, that it's not going to impact their family wealth accumulation. Whereas if you have a black family, where individuals may have 50,000 or more, and you get a $10,000, forgiveness, even a 20,000, you still have a significant debt low, and you have a significant monthly payments. So the big deal is that ultimately, we may end up we could see a widening of the racial wealth gap with something that had been really touted as something that can really do away with elements of the racial wealth gap.

Zandra Polard 5:40
Wow. So you make it white versus black. So this is the thing, it's like, well, my good friend who was here actually in studio, Miss Carol Cruz is here. And she represents the recovery community, right? So it's like, there are a lot of people who are affected. But when we look at race, we have to think like, Okay, well, who's more likely to get the higher paying job? You know, that's an issue. You know, people go through years of school, and then when it's time to pay it back, you know, that money is not available, you know, you can get that loan so quick. But is that job coming quick enough to pay that debt off? Right? So I wanted to bring in Carol Cruz in who is a certified peer support specialist. She's also a life coach, and right a life coach and a speaker,

Unknown Speaker 6:44
recovery coach, and also person in long term recovery.

Zandra Polard 6:48
Thank you. Thank you. So I would like for you to add to the conversation about the recovery community and how they're affected by these student loans and the availability of even getting a student loan. Right.

Unknown Speaker 7:04
Well, thank you, Dr. Wick also too, for sharing your professionalism and background around these issues, because you see it firsthand. Being an educator, you know, being a person to long term recovery since 1994. And when I say I'm in recovery, I'm in recovery from substance use, from also a mental health disorder. Most recently, well, a say in the last 10 years addressing generational trauma, which we are now linking trauma, specifically to mental health disorders and addiction. And when I when I think about the first time I stepped into a college classroom, and no one told me what it was going to mean for those student loans that I took that took out and back in 1981. I'm aging myself a little bit. And I had only just recently and I'm going to be 60 years old next year. I know I look good. Yeah, you look good, look good. I just finished off paying off that first round a student loans. Reason being when I got out of college, I was very much in depth, in debt, and also in the throes of my addiction. I also also formerly incarcerated. So within being incarcerated, I was no longer able to take out any student loans. I wasn't able to get any type of loans to pay off those student loans. And so until I found my pathway to recovery, and which now I'll be celebrating 28 years and a few weeks. There is where, you know, again, there was no one to help me plan out what I needed to expect and as a person of color. I feel that we are it is black and white issue. And I completely agree with Dr. Wick is that with wit I'm sorry. We we often are targeted, just like we were targeted in the housing market to take out loans that they knew we couldn't pay back. They knew that we couldn't pay back for the simple fact that we weren't getting the jobs out there after graduation like our white counterparts. Okay, at least we were getting the jobs we weren't getting the salary offers. And so if I'm not getting the same salary offer, how am I going to pay back those loans? Well, it's not It, you know, it's not my employer's responsibility. It is mine, I signed the contract, I signed the agreement that I would pay back these loans. Well, then

Zandra Polard 10:10
they also have like, what are those programs where you can work in underserved communities, and it helps pay go towards your student loan or something like that

Unknown Speaker 10:20
public student loan forgiveness, okay. So in many cases, you end up having an Income Based Repayment, income driven repayment plan. And you end up having, you know, if you make payments, if you're working in, let's say, you know, Federal workforce, I believe at some point, it was a 10 year plan, if you're working in other areas of public service that qualify, if you have 20, it can be 20 years of payments. But some of those things have been adjusted under some of Biden's plans to make it a little bit easier. But there are a lot of folks who don't qualify in that space, and they still have the debt. And regardless of either side of the coin, a lot of times folks find themselves making monthly payments in whatever form or fashion they are in for for basically, servicing interest. So you'll say folks who take out loans, and the years go by, and they may have paid back close to, or the amount that they originally took out, but they're still in the home. And they're still continuing. And that's what makes it so curious where it's good that something has been done. But it's very curious that there was no specific mention of how do we attack the interest? How do we attack, you know, if people have paid off the amount that they had taken out as their forgiveness, they're moving forward? What are we doing with these interest rates, and also really looking at the fact that they had this $125,000 income cap, and $125,000 income in one community may look a lot different than in another community, because of what we started with the wealth gap. And really being able to have those resources that are needed for so many other elements of life, buying a home, taking care of family, things of that nature. I'm not sure if that was the best approach to put any kind of income parameters rather than really saying, well, let's focus on what is your debt? What is the interest? What have you pay? How do we kind of work it in that way? And what do we do moving forward? So I hope that there's more discussion and more movement on this, that this isn't the end of the line?

Zandra Polard 12:36
Because, you know, I think that you know, folks miss the window 2016 with Bernie Sanders, 16 and 20. How about that? Which is our menu, right? During the Bernie Sanders campaign in 2016. We want all of the debts gone, right? Well, I know I do. So the 10,000 isn't doing very much for me personally. And so I decided to have this show, which is about mental health and wellness. But the stress of being back these loans, definitely affects my mental and emotional state. Right. So

Unknown Speaker 13:20
folks mental and emotional state. But also, if you're dedicating so much of your income to servicing loans, or if you're not able to dedicate your income and servicing the loans, what that might mean to you, in other spaces, that may end up being a barrier to you being in position to get the best mental health care, be at Naval care, or be it being able to take sometimes take time for yourself and take a break. Sometimes we don't think about those elements also.

Zandra Polard 13:51
And you know, I've met so many people who have continued their their education, just because they were not ready to pay back those student loans. And so they're accruing more and more debt. Right. So it's like, it's great, you know, so and so you became a doctor, but it was kind of like a delay in paying back that student loan. So I've heard that many times out there. I'd like

Unknown Speaker 14:17
to address what you were just speaking around the mental health piece, Tom because i feel i i am a lived experience professional. I'm in I'm in the School of Hard Knocks have lived experience around mental health. And you just speaking on that on how it just kind of snowballs into if I've can't put food on the table. And I'm putting all my my income into one, one area or I'm not and now I can't even take out a loan to buy a house or buy a car. Right? I am I'm now newly Grandma Grandma to triplets. They're back in Connecticut. And I'm going to be moving back this coming next month. And I fear for their future for the fact that my son, you know, he has now, not one, not two, but three children. He also has student debt. He also wants to buy a home large enough to fill for his family. And that alone, and he's also diagnosed with a mental health disorder. So that in itself, and he's a black man. Okay, I should have put that first. So that in itself, all of those things compounded. And we wonder why, you know, like, I get really angry when I hear people, well, this is not fair. I paid off all my student loans. Well, you know, what, if we were all back in the 50s, and 60s, we wouldn't had to pay any loans, because there was no loans. For schooling. For college. Right there. There was a GI Bill, there was other means. But it wasn't targeted. It wasn't serving us as people of color.

Zandra Polard 16:21
But, you know, the reason why I said earlier that I don't see it as just black and white. I'm sure many of our listeners out there don't as well, because there is that mental health component, right. So people are able to get an education, if they have mental health issues, but how are they going to, you know, do in the workforce, you know, how's that learning curve gonna go? And so those folks will be affected as well. So it's kind of easier for me, I do understand the black and white piece. But there are other groups of people such as I've felt the recovery community, folks that are in Psych Services at school, I think it affects their future as well.

Unknown Speaker 17:08
I mean, I think there's definitely cuts across ethnic racial boundaries, I think when we're just looking at it in the macro. And we related to some of the arguments that have been made in recent years in the political realm of oh, if we have student forgiveness, student loan forgiveness, we'll see a decrease in the racial wealth gap. Well, that's if you have serious loan forgiveness, not as miniscule loan forgiveness. But yeah, I definitely think that there are people of all different backgrounds, who, you know, there's going to be folks of all backgrounds who this saves them. And there's going to be folks from all backgrounds where this really doesn't do a lot for them, and then in their families, and communities. But I just like to go back to the point of, you know, all of the things that it takes to really support a family in the United States, when you're talking about purchasing a home, having transportation, education, all of those different things. And those are things that are directly related to the wealth gap, that there's going to be some people who are going to be able to have that downpayment covered by Mom and Dad, for the home, right? We have there's gonna be people who have education and other things that are covered, what have you know, the support structure a systems to provide either resources for childcare, provide direct childcare, there's so many Yes, in terms of connections and resources that come with having intergenerational wealth versus not having that. And then on top of that, we go back to the idea that if you didn't have somebody to help put that bill for college, that on top of all these other things were mentioning, you're getting a piece of mail every month saying you need to pay back this loan with pretty heavy interest.

Zandra Polard 18:54
Right? Because, you know, we also, we know, we fall into a lot of us in marginalized groups, you know, first generation college students, right. So, I mean, they're affected as well, I just want to add them into the equation as well. We also

Unknown Speaker 19:14
see attacks on individuals, sometimes an immediate attacks on individuals who've gotten to get graduate and professional degrees. Yet, we have this whole push in those same media spaces to say, well in black and brown communities and other communities, we need more doctors, lawyers, professors, engineers, all of these professions that require extended schooling. But then when folks come from those communities and maybe don't have familiar wealth, to help them foot the bill, and they have to take out loans, then you hear people screaming from the rooftops. Well, we shouldn't help them. But then we have folks who say, you know, we bail out the auto industry, we bail out banks, we bail out all of these big entities and know, you don't hear too much. But then when it's your neighbor, all of a sudden, people get really upset. And I think some of it is kind of, it starts to become a little bit more personal, because they can imagine the person across the street, but how they feel about them. Whereas when we're talking about the big bank, or the big auto company, for whatever reason, we as Americans have some kind of disconnect. I think it might be rooted in the whole false sense of rugged individualism that we talk about, but we don't really live and we probably shouldn't try to live it, we really shouldn't be more collectivist. And our mindset,

Zandra Polard 20:40
yes. Well, I was like, you know, I was thinking, first thing I thought of, with all of this was meritocracy. And you are asking me like, I don't get it. Why are you asking about meritocracy. Because there are people who just feel like, if I can do it, you can do it, and they don't look at, you know, the other factors, some of what you've mentioned, maybe there's a trust fund set up for them from their family, you know, just all of the different types of support, right, that people can have. So

Unknown Speaker 21:15
yeah, we have to remember is different, all of us have navigated our day to day differently. All of us have navigated American society differently, based on our lived experience based on who we are based on the various intersecting identities that make us, you know, us, you know, make us each an individual. And this whole idea of meritocracy that everything is based solely on skill, or merit, it really isn't applicable in an American kind of, you know, American construct, and we always talk about is about who you know, and, you know, circumstances. And that doesn't mean that we shouldn't work hard. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't seek to reward people who have done the work who have the talent, we should always try to do that. But at the same time, we can't go around with the delusion that everybody who got where they got was simply in a vacuum. Through hard work, I've accomplished a lot in my life. And I had a lot of obstacles in my life, but at the same time, I'd be a straight out liar. If I didn't say there were moments where I was in the right place at the right time, if I didn't make the most of connections that I made on my own other connections that were there. But I mean, really building on relationships and building on spaces that I've been in. It was just like I say, it'll just be a lie. If I said, you know, all it was was hard work. And there never was anything that had to do with the spaces I occupied. And then people I knew that, I don't think that'll be true for me.

Zandra Polard 22:47
Well, sir, I want to thank you for coming on to the show. And if you'd need to, you know, hear this information again, you know, you can always go on my website. It's where I am.com. Also, the podcast is available on Apple, Spotify, Google and Amazon. So thank you, again, Vice Chancellor, Dr. Christopher wit, for coming on to the show. Thank you for the valuable information that you've provided. Is there anything you want our listeners to know,

Unknown Speaker 23:24
um, I would just say, you know, to continue to pay attention to the ways in which we have barriers to various areas of accomplishment, being an education and the other space, because if we can pay attention to have conversations about those barriers, we can do a better job of moving those barriers out of the way for future generations. So people really can end up standing on merit. And I just like to thank you for for the conversation and it's good seeing you in good connecting and everyone take care.

Zandra Polard 23:56
Thank you, sir. Wow, it was so great to have him on. And so Carolyn, you are in studio. Thank you for coming in. Thank you

Unknown Speaker 24:05
for inviting me. That's a true treat, especially today.

Zandra Polard 24:10
Awesome. Yeah. Okay, so what makes today's so special? I know, there's some things you want to mention. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 24:15
So um, as I shared earlier, I'm a person in long term recovery. What that means to me is that my life has change. As potentially, you know, I I have a life that I can live well, and I'm in that place of wellness and recovery and healing. Today is actually on overdose, international overdose prevention awareness day. And if you look on the CDC website, you would see from 1999 to 2020, we've lost over a million people. So waiver doses to opioid epidemic due to the opioid epidemic,

Zandra Polard 25:04
but this Awareness Day is on is when is it? August August 31. Okay. Yeah. So we're fast forwarded to September, right? Because we are pre recorded in case you didn't know. But what is going on in the month of September.

Unknown Speaker 25:21
So today's a day of remembrance August 31. I know this won't be aired for a few weeks. But we, you know, someone posted it today on Facebook, that really helped me to really absorb what international overdose Awareness Day means. And it's every day, we lose over 200 people per day, due to an overdose a fatal overdose, either to fentanyl, or prescribe medication, meaning an opioid. And the only thing that is going to reverse a person to coming back to life to living is to administer Naloxone, or Narcan. And that's the space that I come from. So I speak about recovery. But I can't speak about recovery without remembering all the folks that we have lost, you know, over since 1999, in regards to the opioid crisis, but this doesn't really speak to the crack epidemic, where I came, that's where I came into my recovery back in the 80s. Okay, and, and NASA cars and mass incarceration for folks that we're not getting the same sort of sense of services that that people are getting today. So, you know, that's what my, my journey has been. And my purpose has been around, bringing awareness removing stigma around what addiction looks like, you know, as I said, I'm a person in recovery. I don't, I don't call myself an addict, I'm no longer in my active addiction. So tomorrow, September 1, we kick off Recovery Month. And yes, it is we honor it by celebrating those that are in their weather, whatever pathway they are in of recovery. And we have several events going on here. And across the country, across the country, there is many events and recovery walks, and just bringing awareness to communities that we do recover. And that recovery is possible and healing is possible. This has been my lifelong journey. As I shared earlier, I'm going to be 60 years old, I am not going anywhere. As far as you know, career wise. I, I work with folks connect, uh, you know, I connect people into training to get their state certification. And here in Las Vegas, we worked on that. It is a state law that people that are doing peer services are also getting state certified. So there is a training involved, and they can find all that information on the Nevada Certification Board website. Okay. And, and now I'm doing direct peer to peer services. As I'm transitioning back to Connecticut, I found a position where it's remote, and I'm actually being able to do telehealth with individuals that are struggling through mental health disorders, eating disorders, and, and also substance use. So I feel like I'm one of the blessed folks that have gone through this journey and been very successful. Also, just to mention, I found out that a very close friend of mine did die of an overdose yesterday, and I had wished I could have been there. Or someone could have been there to administer Naloxone because it saves lives. It's like a fire extinguisher. You never know when you're going to need it. So I know that was a lot. But you know, this, this is people need to be aware that there's help out there. There's help out there. You know, it's it's not as scarce as it used to be. And by having certified peer specialists out there working in the workforce, and we're growing the workforce. It's it's amazing how well what they're doing here in Las Vegas.

Zandra Polard 29:37
Well, I want to thank you for being a guest on the show and sharing this information with us. It is recovery Awareness Month. Okay. So we'll see you next month, every second Saturday of the month at 8:30am. I'm Sandra polearm. It's where I am. We'll see you next time. Bye

Unknown Speaker 29:58
bye

Transcribed by https://otter.ai